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Author Topic: Discussion: How severely should illegal downloading of any kind, be punished?  (Read 47632 times)

Trerro

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Trerro: With very old games (such as SMB3), you can actualy download the games on your Wii and play them there, they even have games from companies who no longer exist Smiley Most of the time, when a game company goes under, another company buys the rights to the games the original company produced, so they can do things like what Nintendo is doing. As for PC games, save up some $$ and buy the older PC game on Ebay or something! I can understand downloading a ROM for a game that you already own so you can play on your computer, but anything else is taking something that the owner did not give permission to take (otherwise known as theft).

The Wii's VC collection is VERY limited, consisting of less than 10% of the NES and SNES games. If you're not looking for something rather common, it probably isn't there, and isn't ever going to be. Additionally, the download is bound to your Wii, so if that breaks, you lose the game forever - normal game purchases don't have this issue (although you could of course download the VC game and also the rom to avoid this).

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As for music, so what if you don't like the RIAA? If you have a problem with the organization attached to a band's music, DON'T BUY MUSIC FROM THAT BAND!

The overwhelming majority of music is on an RIAA label, I'm guessing roughly 80%. They're not a single record company, they're an unholy alliance of just about all of the big ones.

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If enough people don't boycott music from the RIAA, bands will sign to different organizations.

The 2 companies that own 90% of the radio stations in this country play only RIAA music. Yes, I use Pandora and the like to find bands, but most people don't, and thus most people don't hear ANY music that isn't signed to an RIAA label. People who do use services like Pandora are a very small minority, and even if every last one of them both boycotted RIAA music and made a conscious effort to go out of their way to buy non-RIAA music, it wouldn't make much of a difference.

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Remember, it was the band's choice in the first place to sign to the RIAA

It's not really much of a choice. It's that or get heard on the radio pretty much never. Yes, a band CAN be successful with no mainstream radio airtime, but it's much harder, and it generally only works when an entire genre gets little to no playtime (as this forces fans to find music elsewhere). Most metal bands for instance, are indeed not on RIAA labels. The problem is that there's a double monopoly, one on albums, one on radio stations, and they work together. I really can't fault a band for joining this system to get out of obscurity, and indeed, many grudgingly accept it, but hate it. System of a Down, for instance, released an album with a disc that looks like a CD-R, titled "Steal This Album", and when asked about it, said they aren't kidding - pirate it heavily, they make all their money from concert tickets anyway.

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BTW Trerro StarCraft 1 is still in the stores although it is a 10-11 year old game
This is most definitely true, but it's a pretty rare exception to the rule. It's not only one of the best games of all time, but the RTS genre simply hasn't produced anything of that caliber since, mainly because Bliz stopped making RTSes, Westwood was destroyed by EA, and those were the 2 main companies in that genre.

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going slighty off topic here (sorry  out this) but as far as im awear, crime and punishment have been going on for a long time, and if everyone in the world decided that they didnt want to go to jail or what not so they dont do the crime (they all wouldnt have to decided at the same time) crime would seize to exist, therefore the punishment would eventually be removed and/or people will start doing crime again..and so on...

This is actually a very complex topic (and indeed, would make a great thread in itself :)), but yes, there's many examples of the deterrent idea having little to no value.

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You're right,  I'm entitled to whatever I want, right? Isn't that the motto: from each according to his ability, to each according to his need?

I do believe that's the first time I've ever seen file sharing linked to communist paranoia in anything but jest. In particular, it's usually accompanied by this silly image:


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When my boss came rolling in with a brand new Corvette, I should have just taken the keys from him and driven off

Do I REALLY have to point out the difference between actual theft (i.e., the original owner no longer has the item) and copyright infringement (the creator loses profits, but no one loses an actual item.) That doesn't make infringement right, but they are in no way whatsoever equivalent offenses.

Are you also the kind of person who says pushing someone out of your way is the same as beating them for 5 minutes with a baseball bat (they're both physical attacks), or that lying about being a few minutes late to work is the same as cheating on your wife (they're both dishonesty)?
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oddblob :)

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It's not really much of a choice. It's that or get heard on the radio pretty much never. Yes, a band CAN be successful with no mainstream radio airtime, but it's much harder, and it generally only works when an entire genre gets little to no playtime (as this forces fans to find music elsewhere). Most metal bands for instance, are indeed not on RIAA labels. The problem is that there's a double monopoly, one on albums, one on radio stations, and they work together. I really can't fault a band for joining this system to get out of obscurity, and indeed, many grudgingly accept it, but hate it. System of a Down, for instance, released an album with a disc that looks like a CD-R, titled "Steal This Album", and when asked about it, said they aren't kidding - pirate it heavily, they make all their money from concert tickets anyway.

just as a side note kind of off topic..there seems to be lost of that about :S

army of freshman are the most succseful unsigned band, they even founded the get happy tour with the one of the worlds best band Bowling for soup so yes it properbly is hard no to..but is possibly

and evn though his rrubbish (in my opion, he was one of the bands supporting BFS when i went to see em)
MC lars has a song called Download this song

ok after that song youll need something better
well know...this is an act called mating, but there are a few differences between human beings and animals that you should know about....

         

GPH

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Yay for going wildly off topic. Re Oars 'get a job' I would point out that the economy currently sucks. I recently graduated university and have not been able to find a job. At all. I've applied for everything from night shifts at the local supermarkets to things which I'm not really even qualified for on the off chance. People aren't hiring at the moment, they're firing. I read in the news paper the other day that the AVERAGE number of applicants for jobs in my area is around 50-100 at the moment. Hell, I can't even get any volunteer work. The solution may well be moving and I'll look into that once I've finished getting my driving license, but that isn't an option that 1420r2d has (I assume). So do I think 1420r2d should have downloaded the game? Not really, considering the infinite capacity of the internet to entertain with free stuff. Is 'just get a job and stop being lazy' a constructive response to his stance however? Not so much I feel.

So, to be back on topic. I have little problem with people downloading and using emulators for games which are out of production. Sure, you can still technically buy a SNES and the copyright probably hasn't run out on the games (does anyone have any idea how long the copyright lasts on games before they become freeware, or is it variable?) so you're technically doing something illegal but the company wouldn't care even if they knew and its infinitely less hassle to play on the computer rather than faffing around with cartridges/cables anyway. Things become have become more complicated now with things like XboxLive and Wiiware releasing old games again. I'm less inclined to feel harshly about this though as even if you do it a lot it'll prolly only amount to 'theft' of the value of one modern game *shrugs*

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Finally what do you guys think of predownloading some TV series on your PC should it be considered as a theft or maybe some kind of violation if you want to see you show earlier?

This one is a little harder. Technically what you're stealing here is your non-watching of the adverts and/or subscription to the TV channel the show airs on. The subscription one is easy enough to deal with...if you are subscribed to the channel then no problem, you're just choosing to watch it at a more convenient time, if you're not then you can't really justify it in legal terms :P

If you physically don't have access to the channel that shows the show then I don't personally feel that you're doing anything wrong in watching it online but you are clearly never going to legally be in the right. If you want to be able to claim the moral high ground you'll just have to wait til it comes out on DVD and watch it then. (Note - as per earlier, I don't think there's anything wrong with watching a TV show online that you otherwise wouldn't have access too...however if you want to go back and re-watch it again at a later date because you thought it was good, you really should be buying the DVD)

However people pay for adverts based on how many people they think will be watching the channel and channels pay for shows in order to lure people to watch. If people watch online instead then ratings will show lower numbers, people will pay less to put adverts on meaning the channels will make less money and will be less likely to make similar shows/continue the show/be able to buy shows at all. But then the question is how many of you watch adverts anyway? I know I just turn the volume off or go and make myself a drink while the adverts are on so technically I'm already 'stealing' the show.


Edit - also it occured to me that my previous position of shoplifting punishment should probably be modified in response to thinking about it. Don't have a shoplifting charge for every thing you downloaded, more have the penalties for a shoplifting charge available, in addition to potential fines. So you could possibly get shoplifting charge, fine or shoplifting charge + fine. Once again scaling somehow with severity of downloads.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 12:33:47 am by GPH »
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Bman21212

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Trerro meeped me, so I decided to post..

There are two main questions being asked in this forum.
1. What should the punishment be for breaking copyright law?
2. What should copyright law be?

Really, they go hand in hand.

1. Personal copyright infringement should not be as punished as  theft, because while the two like to be equated, they are not the same.  Theft is
the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.
Copying is not theft. There is no " taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another" If you were able to make a copy of my laptop, then you would end up with a laptop but I would still have mine.  I do not inherently lose anything.

2. Copyright law is insane.  Warner Music Group owns the Happy Birthday song.  Technically, no one can sing that unless they pay them.  They make $2 million a year off of that. (Source)
Look at this chart

We don't need copyright to be as long as it is.  It has been thwarted from its original goal of letting creativity flourish.  At this point it only helps the mega stars, not the little guys who were the supposed benefactors.  Copyright for 105 years! 105! There is no point to that.  If you cannot make a living off your product after a reasonable amount of time, say a decade maybe two, then it isn't working for you. The original sane standard was 27 years. The only point of the century long copyrights are for corporations to make money many years after the artist is dead.  The point is to encourage creation, a shorter copyright term would actually encourage more creation because it is necessary to survive and possible.  Mashups and remixes are creative content.  I can copy Mozart's work, but I cannot copy any part of a Benny Goodman song even though the music is from the 40s and he died over two decades ago.  Musicians make pittance off recordings, they make most of their money off concerts.

Currently, the statutory damages for copyright infringement are $200 to $150,00 per work. (Source)  That means one accidental illegally downloaded song would cost at minimum 200x the base price and that is is the person was "not aware and had no reason to believe" they had downloaded the song.  A purposeful download would be much more, some have been fined the maximum, $150,000 per song.  Quite frankely, that is insane.  One song should not bankrupt you.

I do not believe copyrights should exist the way they do, the limits are too long and material it covers is too broad.  So I am not for enforcing copyright laws against music downloads at all.  However, if we do reform the system with more reasonable timeframes, the penalties should be  2-50x the cost of the song.  For example, if Joe downloads 1000 copyright infringing songs off bittorrent and gets caught, he should have to pay between $2,000 and $50,000.  The final price would be decided by the judge.  I am not in favor of any penalty greater than 50x the cost in any situation because judges have often abused their power to make a statement.  While most band would be much better off releasing music for free then letting people pay or shows or posters and support the band in other ways, they should have the right to make that decision.


I also support competent copyright laws for games books and movies.  If you cannot make a living after two decades, tough cookies.  However, it takes a colossal amount of time and money to make a blockbuster game or movie and that effort should be rewarded.  But the current system is overbearing and unnecessary.

PS.  I hope this is mostly coherent, I did write it at at 1AM

oarsof6

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I believe that the question was "how severely should illegal downloading of any kind, be punished", not "how is illegal downloaing punished now". While current law holds that illegal downloading is just copyright infringement, punishable only by civil courts, I stated my belief that illegal downloading should be a criminal offence. I believe that the civil definition is outdated, and defines taking something that you did not create, own, or otherwise have any claim to, as something other than theft.

According to common sense alone, downloading something that you did not have permission from the owner to download is theft, even if you still have your own. If I were to copy someone else's research paper and turn it in as my own work, would I not be accused of stealing someone else's work? Am I not using someone else's work without permission for my own benefit?

Which is why, according to my beliefs (as the original question asked), I regard illegal downloading as a criminal offence, punishable by jail time (although in small amounts). As I stated before, I believe this punishment fits the crime, and will act as a severe deterrent for others thinking of presuing a similar action.

In reguards to comments made:
Quote from: Trerro
Are you also the kind of person who says pushing someone out of your way is the same as beating them for 5 minutes with a baseball bat (they're both physical attacks), or that lying about being a few minutes late to work is the same as cheating on your wife (they're both dishonesty)?
Pushing someone is still assault, lying about being late to work is obviously still lying, just different degrees. All actions mentioned deserve some sort of punishment, again depending on the degree of the action. I think we would all agree that downloading a song is not the same degree as breaking into someone's house and stealing their TV, which is why I believe that 1 day of jail or community service is sufficient for that type of theft.

Regarding your communism reference: I thought it was obvious that I was referencing 1420r2d's communist Avatar and attitude that he should get whatever someone else has because he wants it, not because he worked for and earned it. I know we're in a tough economy, but that does not excuse his attitude and actions. (By the way, even in an economy such as this, there is work available, it just may not be the work that you would prefer. If you still can't find a "job", go out and shovel someone's driveway, cut some grass, do something on your own)

1420r2d

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oarsof6, I agree partially about the jail time, but I don't know how much time would you prefer people to spend there. And about my communist Avatar, I only use such symbols like that on my Avatar, swastikas and other hellish things in a way to make fun of them. I am not a communist, I am strongly against it. Also about the job thingie again - my country is in a very bad shape. I am 90% sure that you haven't even heard of Bulgaria, and have in mind that your army has bootcamps here. So the economy is very bad, I am still seventeen and i still attend school which takes me the better part of the week. Here the law states clearly that when a person is under the age of eighteen he is forbidden by law to work on a full work day with a full payment - so if I manage to get a job even when I am up to my neck in school work, I would still have to work half time and receive half payment. Also, here nobody hires the neighborhood boy to cut his grass or shovel his driveway. The thing is that here we live in, how do you say it, apartment blocks. Only the desolate villa zones have houses with lawns and driveways. Google map Bulgaria and see just how bad we are doing. Everybody leaves the country and goes working in the USA,GB,Germany and e.t.c. And as I said if I am able to find a job I will work and buy stuff that I cold have easily downloaded. My attitude changed after your first post against me/my vision of things, and I am seeing that your vision on this kinda problem is going from easy to hard(?). And as I said before don't go judging people before you know them.       

Bman21212

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According to common sense alone, downloading something that you did not have permission from the owner to download is theft, even if you still have your own. If I were to copy someone else's research paper and turn it in as my own work, would I not be accused of stealing someone else's work? Am I not using someone else's work without permission for my own benefit?

I'm not sure what UMBC was like, but at my college if you copy someones work, you get in trouble for copying their work.  If you steal it, take it from them so they no longer have it, you get in trouble for stealing.  They really are two separate issues.

oarsof6

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Again, I am not speaking about legal definitions, which can change at any time (see Brown Vs Board of Education). The question asked what we thought, so I answered as such.

With my paper example, the author of the original research paper put months, perhaps years of research and writing into the project; you are effectively using that hard work without permission for your own benefit, which I conclude to be piracy or theft. Same goes with illegal downloading of anything... you are using another person's work/investment without permission. Question: You spend years developing a killer app and put it on sale for $5.00. Everyone lobys the app, but some don't feel like they need to pay you for your work. They hack into your computer, copy the source code, and distrbuite it themselves for free. Now, instead of making 100,000 sales for $5.00 each, you make 10. Would you say "hey, they copied my program! Oh well, let me get started on my next application, which I can release in another year or two", or would you be on the phone with the police, accusing them of stealing your work and livelihood? You tend to think of things differently when you're on the other end.

And 1420r2d I did not judge you as a person, just your perceived attitude. I understand your situation and know what it's like to literally have nothing to your name, but there is a reason that I played a free, web based MMO called KOC when I was in college ;)

By the way, if you want to talk current law, read the No Electronic Theft Act, which atually defines several criminal offences for "electronic theft", including "Any person who infringes a copyright willfully for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain, or by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic means  during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $1,000". It looks like the law already is on my side ;)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 10:16:26 pm by oarsof6 »

Trerro

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If I were to copy someone else's research paper and turn it in as my own work, would I not be accused of stealing someone else's work?

No, you would be accused of plagarism, not theft. If proved to be a plagarist, you would be flunked, suspended, expelled, demoted, or fired, depending on what you plagarized and whether this was school or work. In the event you used said paper to obtain a grant or any other form of profit, that could potentially be considered fraud, and THEN you could probably be arrested, although in most cases, you're still just going to be shamed and sued. The loss of reputation is likely to be more damaging to your career than jail time would have been anyway.

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With my paper example, the author of the original research paper put months, perhaps years of research and writing into the project; you are effectively using that hard work without permission for your own benefit, which I conclude to be piracy or theft. Same goes with illegal downloading of anything... you are using another person's work/investment without permission.

You are not claiming to have made the song, it's still clear who made it. This kills the research paper analogy. The key with a research paper is to have your name on it... you generally want it distributed as widely as possible, as in addition to fame, this gives you grants for both more ambitious research projects, and a higher salary. You may in fact be increasing the band's sphere of influence and therefore concert sales, beneficial in a very similar way to using part of a research paper in your own work with the source being properly cited.

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Question: You spend years developing a killer app and put it on sale for $5.00. Everyone lobys the app, but some don't feel like they need to pay you for your work. They hack into your computer, copy the source code, and distrbuite it themselves for free. Now, instead of making 100,000 sales for $5.00 each, you make 10. Would you say "hey, they copied my program! Oh well, let me get started on my next application, which I can release in another year or two", or would you be on the phone with the police, accusing them of stealing your work and livelihood? You tend to think of things differently when you're on the other end.

3 problems with this:
1. They hacked into my system, so they've already done something criminal.
2. Pretty much every program in existence can be downloaded for free from torrent sites, and pretty much every experienced computer user not only knows this, but knows the chances of facing penalties if they only download and don't actively distribute are basically nil. Yet, plenty of programs still sell hundreds of thousands, if not millions of copies. That's not to say widespread piracy doesn't lower profits, but we're talking a 10-20% loss, not the 99.99% you're claiming. In rare cases, it actually improves profits as it makes people aware of an otherwise unknown app, although that's a lot rarer with software than it is with music, especially since there's no revenue equivalent to concerts on that.
3. It's HIGHLY unlikely that the person who took the source knows how to actually do anything with it other than just compile and distribute it, so as soon as I add features, the hacked version is old news.
4. If it's not a web ap, why the hell is it online at all? If it IS a web app, why am I selling it, when I'd probably make more from ads or a freemium model?

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but there is a reason that I played a free, web based MMO called KOC when I was in college

I played KoC for the social side of it, but I also played RO. My school had a decent coop program so I wasn't dead broke though.

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By the way, if you want to talk current law, read the No Electronic Theft Act, which atually defines several criminal offences for "electronic theft", including "Any person who infringes a copyright willfully for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain, or by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic means  during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $1,000". It looks like the law already is on my side

We're talking about downloading for personal use, not selling bootlegs, so the first half of that doesn't apply at all. As for $1,000 in 180 days, that's something like 250 full albums per year. I highly doubt many download that kind of volume, and if you're getting that much, it's probably to sell bootlegs... hence why it's tacked on to a law that in all other cases is about PROFITING from others' work.

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Look at what happened in Katrina: the authority was gone, so the population reverted to theft, murder, and general lawlessness. People were no longer worried about the consequences of their crimes, so they went out and did pretty much whatever they wanted. Yes, there is still crime when authority is in place, but the crime is at a much much lower rate than it would be if there were no consequences to their actions.

Nope. If things truly devolved to the state you claimed, there would have been thousands murdered, new gangs cropping up, random people burning down entire blocks because they can... but there was none of that, just looting. When people lose everything and their families can't eat, the overwhelming majority will choose crime over letting their family starve. The looting stopped not because the national guard was there (that only stopped it in places they were directly patrolling, and even there, with limited success.) The looting stopped when massive quantities of donated food and temporary shelters were available, so everyone could survive until the city could be rebuilt. Believe it or not, most people actually AREN'T assholes.
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Dragon Code: DC2.Dw Gm L7f W T Palw Sks Cbk Bfl/"puns" A Fr-- M O H-- $- Fo R++ Ac++ J++ S+ I--# Tc++ E+

"I never knew faith had to come with an instruction manual." - Source Unknown
"My political ideal is the democracy. Let every man be respected as an individual, but let no man be idolized" - Einstein
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin